{"id":4891,"date":"2020-10-28T19:00:37","date_gmt":"2020-10-28T19:00:37","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.luksicscholars.org\/?post_type=ls-admin-announce&p=4891"},"modified":"2020-11-20T14:41:04","modified_gmt":"2020-11-20T14:41:04","slug":"el-debate-sobre-la-cultura-debe-ir-mas-alla-del-escenario-constitucional-que-aprendimos-de-la-charla-con-arturo-navarro-the-debate-on-culture-must-go-beyond-the-constitut","status":"publish","type":"ls-admin-announce","link":"https:\/\/luksicscholars.org\/en\/admin-announcement\/el-debate-sobre-la-cultura-debe-ir-mas-alla-del-escenario-constitucional-que-aprendimos-de-la-charla-con-arturo-navarro-the-debate-on-culture-must-go-beyond-the-constitut\/","title":{"rendered":"\u201cEl debate sobre la cultura debe ir m\u00e1s all\u00e1 del escenario constitucional\u201d. \u00bfQu\u00e9 aprendimos de la charla con Arturo Navarro? \/ “The debate on culture must go beyond the constitutional scenario.” What did we learn from Arturo Navarro?"},"content":{"rendered":"\n

[espa\u00f1ol\/English] El segundo evento de nuestra serie sobre el plebiscito chileno, \u201cla perspectiva cultural\u201d, junto a nuestro invitado especial y Luksic Scholar, Arturo Navarro, y Marcela Ramos como moderadora, suscit\u00f3 una enriquecedora conversaci\u00f3n, desde la definici\u00f3n de cultura, a c\u00f3mo se gest\u00f3 la cultura en Chile y c\u00f3mo se ve su futuro. (The English version can be found below.)<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Es importante tener en cuenta que este evento se llev\u00f3 a cabo antes del plebiscito chileno 2020, siendo nuestro primer evento realizado en espa\u00f1ol. Arturo Navarro, expositor principal, es el Director del Centro Cultural Estaci\u00f3n Mapocho y Luksic Scholar del programa Visiting Scholars DRCLAS de la Universidad de Harvard (2006). Marcela Ramos, moderadora, es la Directora del programa de Arte, Cine y Cultura del Centro de Estudios Latinoamericanos de la Universidad de Harvard (DRCLAS).<\/span><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

De formato virtual, el webinar cont\u00f3 con la posibilidad de que cada participante pudiera habilitar su audio y video, reservando sus intervenciones para el espacio de preguntas y respuestas hacia el final del mismo.<\/span><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Definici\u00f3n de cultura<\/strong><\/h4>\n\n\n\n

El conversatorio, que tuvo lugar el pasado jueves 22 de octubre previo al resultado del plebiscito en Chile, parti\u00f3 con la introducci\u00f3n de Marcela, quien sugiri\u00f3 comenzar con la definici\u00f3n de cultura.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Para ello, tom\u00f3 como base la definici\u00f3n de la UNESCO, que establece a la cultura como algo muy general, dando as\u00ed cuenta de la relevancia de la misma pero de la dificultad en detallar qu\u00e9 es. <\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Arturo, quien se denomina gestor cultural, por su parte, intervino compartiendo la definici\u00f3n que ocupara Agust\u00edn Squella (abogado, periodista y profesor chileno, Premio Nacional de Humanidades): \u201ccultura es todo entre el polvo y las estrellas\u201d.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Luego, Arturo coment\u00f3 cu\u00e1les son los modelos culturales m\u00e1s aceptados y utilizados alrededor del mundo:<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

  1. Tipo de desarrollo cultural vinculado al modelo estadounidense \u2013 modelo de desarrollo cultural predominante \u2013 o el m\u00e1s conocido- con base en la iniciativa privada y la filantrop\u00eda, en el cual, seg\u00fan la premisa de Arturo, seg\u00fan qui\u00e9n financie la cultura es el tipo de desarrollo cultural que el pa\u00eds tiene.<\/li>
  2. En otro extremo, el modelo ruso o sovi\u00e9tico, con el Estado interviniente, due\u00f1o de los medios de producci\u00f3n y culturales. <\/li>
  3. El franc\u00e9s, el modelo m\u00e1s conversado, con un importante rol del gobierno, en el que cada presidente quiere trascender en materia de cultura, y deja un recuerdo, como los gestos como el Centro Pompidou y la pir\u00e1mide del Louvre.<\/li>
  4. El modelo brit\u00e1nico, de \u201carts council\u201d, en el cual, el Estado se encuentra cerca de la cultura, pero arm-length, a un brazo de distancia figurativamente hablando, de la misma. Es decir, es un consejo el que asigna los recursos de los que dispone el Estado.<\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n

    Diagn\u00f3stico, contexto Chile y c\u00f3mo se ha movido el pa\u00eds en esos modelos:<\/strong><\/h4>\n\n\n\n

    Aqu\u00ed, Arturo introdujo un cap\u00edtulo en la charla vinculado al desarrollo hist\u00f3rico de Chile, contando que se ha movido siempre desde la pobreza.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    \u201cPartiendo por la \u00e9poca de la colonia, donde el pa\u00eds fuera una Capitan\u00eda y no un Virreinato como es el caso de Per\u00fa o el del R\u00edo de la Plata\/ Argentina.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    La cultura, a los inicios de la rep\u00fablica, en el primer ciclo de vida independiente, es una cultura muy declarativa que fue tomando cuerpo en dos instituciones:<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    – La Universidad de Chile para las artes; y 
    – La direcci\u00f3n de Bibliotecas, Archivos y Museos (DIBAM), encargada del patrimonio.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Con esa fr\u00e1gil estructura cultural existi\u00f3 la cultura en Chile hasta la ola de participaci\u00f3n \u201cpopular\u201d en el siglo XX -vinculada a la \u00e9poca de Kennedy- y el proceso de incorporaci\u00f3n de las grandes masas a la vida pol\u00edtica y cultural.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Esto gener\u00f3 procesos m\u00e1s intervencionistas del Estado en el aparato cultural, suscitando un continuo de aproximaci\u00f3n a un modelo cultural m\u00e1s franc\u00e9s que le daba, en Chile, una enorme importancia a las universidades.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    A\u00f1o 1962: comenz\u00f3 la televisi\u00f3n en Chile, empujada por el Mundial de F\u00fatbol. El potencial de la televisi\u00f3n fue entregado a las universidades. Es un s\u00edmbolo del desarrollo cultural de Chile -y de su posterior involuci\u00f3n. <\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Hab\u00eda una estrecha relaci\u00f3n entre cultura y educaci\u00f3n.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Se pas\u00f3 de una cultura que participaba a las clases m\u00e1s populares a la identificaci\u00f3n de la misma como \u201cenemigo\u201d durante la Dictadura Militar. <\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    El mundo de la cultura comienza as\u00ed una terrible involuci\u00f3n, a lo que se le suma el recorte presupuestario destinado a cultura. <\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    La primera medida que la Dictadura toma para favorecer a la cultura es levantar la censura de prensa y expresi\u00f3n. Momento hist\u00f3rico, con protestas en comunas de \u201cclase media\u201d.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Ese despertar del mundo de la cultura supuso una reunificaci\u00f3n de este mundo alrededor de la campa\u00f1a del \u201cNo\u201d, con el plebiscito de 1988. <\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Se logr\u00f3 una franja cultural para una campa\u00f1a simb\u00f3lica que fue cultural, no pol\u00edtica. <\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    As\u00ed, el mundo de la cultura sale empoderado de una manera que no hab\u00eda ocurrido antes en Chile.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Es as\u00ed como el presidente Aylwin (1990-1994), crea el Centro Cultural Mapocho, s\u00edmbolo del presidente, actitud similar a lo acostumbrado en el modelo cultural franc\u00e9s. De esta manera se deja constancia de la impronta y fuerza de la cultura, creando un centro cultural en una estaci\u00f3n de trenes abandonada.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Ah\u00ed se descubre el modelo mixto brit\u00e1nico que tambi\u00e9n surgiera de la pobreza, de la posguerra.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Este no es hoy el modelo predominante, lamentablemente. <\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Durante la gesti\u00f3n del presidente Lagos (2000-2006) se cre\u00f3 el Consejo Nacional de la Cultura y las Artes, aut\u00f3nomo y descentralizado, hoy \u201cMinisterio de las Culturas, las Artes y el Patrimonio\u201d.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Plebiscito y Constituci\u00f3n:<\/h4>\n\n\n\n

    En este apartado de la conversaci\u00f3n, Arturo se\u00f1al\u00f3 enf\u00e1ticamente que \u201cel estado de la cultura hoy no se resuelve con una frase en la Constituci\u00f3n. Es un tema que hay que instalar, incluyendo mayor participaci\u00f3n de los pueblos originarios, reafirmar la libertad de expresi\u00f3n, profundizar sobre los derechos de autor e introducir aspectos en las pol\u00edticas educacionales, en la presencia cultural en la educaci\u00f3n, incluida la art\u00edstica\u201d.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Marcela, por su parte, agreg\u00f3: \u201clo clave ser\u00eda que la cultura (o su acceso) fuese un derecho para los ciudadanos y una obligaci\u00f3n para el Estado, que se haga cargo de lo cultural\u201d.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Arturo cerr\u00f3 la charla haciendo hincapi\u00e9 en que la cultura debe estar en lo cotidiano, estableciendo que la cultura debiera ser el centro del debate diario, junto con la educaci\u00f3n, por cuanto, asimismo, Marcela destac\u00f3 cu\u00e1n clave es para ella la relaci\u00f3n cultura-educaci\u00f3n, se\u00f1alando que, en el modelo franc\u00e9s, una de los pro es que se inculca la cultura desde la etapa escolar. A eso -agrega Navarro- los programas de estudio (que incluyan a la educaci\u00f3n art\u00edstica) tienen un rol fundamental.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Al final de la exposici\u00f3n, el evento contempl\u00f3 un espacio para preguntas y respuestas.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Francisco Casta\u00f1eda<\/a>, Luksic Scholar del programa Babson Case Writing & Teaching Workshop programa (2009), y cuyo Director de la Escuela de Negocios de Universidad Mayor, alz\u00f3 su voz para se\u00f1alar la importancia de la  confianza como capital social.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Sugiri\u00f3 incorporar al consejo de la cultura actores que provengan del mundo empresarial y del gobierno. Es decir, tener espacio en el consejo para sectores m\u00e1s conservadores sin desatender otros sectores de la cultura, en conjunto con el gobierno y actores del \u00e1mbito de la cultura. Mostrar preferencia por los sectores m\u00e1s populares y vulnerables, que requieren de cultura y es desatendido, llamar a la inclusi\u00f3n e integraci\u00f3n social. <\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Arturo, por su parte, hizo menci\u00f3n a la importancia de los gestores culturales, tom\u00e1ndolos como una suerte de \u201ctraductores\u201d entre empresarios y artistas, que intermedian y generan di\u00e1logo entre ambas partes.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    De la misma manera, Karen Rodr\u00edguez<\/a>, Luksic Scholar del programa Babson SEE Antofagasta 92018), y contador y auditor actual para Universidad Cat\u00f3lica del Norte, se refiri\u00f3 a si se debiera hablar de pol\u00edticas de Estado o de pol\u00edticas de gobierno.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Arturo respondi\u00f3 a la interrogante destacando la despreocupaci\u00f3n de la clase pol\u00edtica por la cultura porque, argument\u00f3, el v\u00ednculo entre cultura y pol\u00edtica en Chile se ha perdido.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    As\u00ed es como \u201cel debate sobre la cultura debe ir m\u00e1s all\u00e1 del escenario constitucional\u201d, concluy\u00f3 Arturo.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    \n\n\n\n

    Si tuvieras alguna pregunta en relaci\u00f3n a este tem\u00e1tica y quisieras conectar directamente con Arturo, puedes hacerlo a trav\u00e9s de su perfil de Luksic Scholar, aqu\u00ed en el portal: conecta con Arturo Navarro<\/a>. De seguro a \u00e9l le encantar\u00e1 saber de ti.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Este evento es el segundo parte de la serie: \u201cEl plebiscito chileno contado desde tres perspectivas: la constitucional, la cultural, y la econ\u00f3mica. En caso que te hayas perdido el primer evento, \u201cla perspectiva constitucional\u201d, con la participaci\u00f3n de ex-embajador de Chile en los Estados Unidos, Arturo Fermandois, puedes leer el resumen de su exposici\u00f3n aqu\u00ed: “We were able to reach agreements on the technicalities of the constitutional process.\u201d Read more about Arturo Fermandois\u2019 experience and knowledge surrounding Chile\u2019s referendum<\/a>. (El resumen solamente sale en ingl\u00e9s.)<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Las opiniones expresadas por los oradores u otros terceros en los seminarios web, eventos y\/o conferencias de la Fundaci\u00f3n Luksic Scholars son las del orador o tercero y no, necesariamente, las de la organizaci\u00f3n de la Fundaci\u00f3n Luksic Scholars o sus representantes.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    \n\n\n\n

    ENGISH VERSION: The second event in our Chile Plebiscite series, \u201cThe Cultural Perspective,\u201d has concluded. Our featured, special guest, Arturo Navarro (Luksic Scholar), alongside Marcela Ramos (moderator), provided us with a lively and enriching conversation, walking us through the definition of culture, discussing how culture came about in Chile, and what the future of culture may look like for the country post-plebiscite. This was followed by a Q&A from the audience during which participants were able to unmute themselves and\/or turn on their cameras. Read more below:<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    It\u2019s important to note this event was held prior to the 2020 Chile Plebiscite. It was also our first event held in Spanish. Arturo Navarro is the Director of the Estaci\u00f3n Mapocho Cultural Center in Chile and is a Luksic Scholar from the Harvard DRCLAS Visiting Scholar program (2006). Moderator, Marcela Ramos, is the Director of the Art, Film, and Culture program at the Center of Latin American Studies at Harvard University (DRCLAS).<\/span><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    What is culture?<\/strong><\/h4>\n\n\n\n

    The conversation took place last Thursday, October 22nd, prior to the result of the plebiscite in Chile, and began with an introduction by Marcela, who suggested we start with the definition of culture.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    In order to do so, she used UNESCO’s definition as a basis, which establishes culture as a very general concept, accounting for its relevance, but at the same time showing difficulty in detailing exactly what it is. <\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    In response, Arturo, known as a \u201ccultural manager,\u201d stepped in to share the definition that Augustine Squella (lawyer, journalist and Chilean professor, National Humanities Award) used, and that is: “culture is everything between the dust and the stars.”<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Arturo then commented on the most-accepted and most-used cultural models around the world:<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    1. Type of cultural development linked to the North American model – the predominant model of cultural development – or the best-known – which is based on private initiative and philanthropy, and therefore, according to Arturo\u2019s premise, means that whoever finances the culture is the type of cultural development that the country has.<\/li>
    2. On the other extreme, there is the Russian or Soviet model, characterized by an intervening State who is the owner of the means of production and culture.<\/li>
    3. The French, which is the most talked-about model, has an important role for the government, in which each president wishes to transcend in matters of culture and leave their mark by creating structures such as the Pompidou Center and the Louvre Pyramid.<\/li>
    4. Lastly, the British model of “arts council”, is when the State is close to the culture but at arm’s length, figuratively speaking. That is, it is a council that assigns the resources available to the State.<\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n

      The diagnosis: what is the cultural context in Chile and how has the country moved through these different cultural development models?<\/strong><\/h4>\n\n\n\n

      In this part of the talk, Arturo introduced a chapter related to the historical development of Chile, telling us that it has always come from a place of poverty.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

      \u201cStarting with the inception of the colony, the country was a Captaincy, not a Viceroyalty as in the case of Peru or R\u00edo de la Plata \/ Argentina…\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

      Culture, at the beginning of the Republic, in this first cycle of independence, was a very declarative culture which took shape in two institutions:<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

      – The University of Chile for the arts; and 
      – The Directorate of Libraries, Archives, and Museums (DIBAM), in charge of heritage.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

      With this fragile cultural structure, culture itself existed in Chile until the wave of \u201cpopular\u201d participation in the 20th century – linked to the Kennedy era – and the process of incorporation of large masses into politics and culture.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

      This generated more State interventionist processes within the cultural apparatus, ultimately producing a continuous approach to a more French cultural model in Chile that gave enormous importance to universities.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

      The year 1962: television arrived in Chile, pushed by the World Cup, and the potential of this was handed over to the universities: a symbol of the cultural development of Chile and of its subsequent involution. There began a close relationship between culture and education.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

      Then there was a shift from a culture that involved the masses to then identifying it as an \u201cenemy\u201d during the military dictatorship. The cultural world thus enters a terrible regression, in addition to a budget cut. The first measure that the dictatorship actually took to favor culture was to lift the censorship of the press. This was a historic moment surrounded by demonstrations in middle-class communes.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

      The awakening of this \u201cworld of culture\u201d meant a reunification [of this world] around the \u201cNo\u201d campaign with the 1988 plebiscite. Consequently, a cultural perimeter was achieved for a symbolic campaign that was truly cultural, not political, and the \u201cworld of culture\u201d was then empowered in a way that it had never been before in Chile.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

      This is how President Aylwin (1990-1994) created the Mapocho Cultural Center, a symbol of the president, which showcased a similar gesture as to what is customary in the French cultural model. In this way, the imprint and strength of culture are recorded in time by having created a cultural center in an abandoned train station. <\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

      From there, the British mixed model came about, which again, is characterized by having emerged from poverty; from a postwar period. Although this is not the predominant model today, unfortunately, during the administration of President Lagos (2000-2006), the autonomous and decentralized National Council for Culture and Arts was created, now known as the \u201cMinistry of Culture, Arts, and Heritage.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

      What comes next? The 2020 Plebiscite and the Constitution:<\/strong><\/h4>\n\n\n\n

      In this section of the conversation, Arturo emphatically pointed out that \u201cthe state of culture today is not resolved by a single sentence in the Constitution. It is an issue that must be established, including greater participation of native people, reaffirming the freedom of speech and expression, deepening copyright privileges and introducing [cultural] aspects to educational policies, incorporating cultural presence in education, including art.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

      Marcela also added: “the key would be that culture, or its access, was a right for citizens and an obligation for the State to be in charge of culture [and its access].”<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

      Arturo concluded the talk by emphasizing that culture should be in “the every day,” stating that culture should be the center of daily debate, along with education, because, likewise, Marcela highlighted how key the culture-education relationship is for her, pointing out that in the French model, one of the pros is that culture is inculcated from the elementary stage of school. Arturo adds to this that study programs (which include artistic education) have a fundamental role. <\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

      At the end of the conversation, there was a Q&A for the audience to ask questions directly to Arturo. Francisco Casta\u00f1eda<\/a>, Luksic Scholar of the 2009 Babson Case Writing & Teaching Workshop program, and current Director of the Business School ar Universidad Mayor, started by raising his voice to point out the importance of trust as social capital.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

      He suggested incorporating actors from both the business world and the government into the culture council. In other words, to have space on the council for more conservative sectors without neglecting other cultural sectors, in conjunction with the government and actors from the cultural field. This would be in order to show a preference for the most vulnerable sectors, who ulimately make up the majority, and who require culture the most, yet are neglected; it\u2019s a call for social inclusion and integration. <\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

      Arturo also mentioned the importance of \u201ccultural managers,\u201d and to view them as a kind of \u201ctranslator\u201d between businessmen and artists, who mediate and generate dialogue between both parties.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

      Similarly, Karen Rodr\u00edguez<\/a>, Luksic Scholar from the 2018 Babson SEE Antofagasta program and current accountant and auditor at Universidad Cat\u00f3lica del Norte, referred to whether we should talk about State or government policies.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

      Arturo answered this question by highlighting the lack of concern for culture on behalf of the political class because, he argued, the link between culture and politics in Chile has been lost.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

      This is how “the debate on culture must go beyond the constitutional stage,” Arturo concluded.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

      \n\n\n\n

      If you have pending questions surrounding this topic and would like to connect with Arturo directly, you can do so via his Luksic Scholars Profile: connect with Arturo Navarro here<\/a>. He would love to hear from you!<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

      This event is the second in our three-part series: \u201cThe Chilean Plebiscite told from Three Perspectives: Constitutional, Cultural, and Economic\u201d. In case you missed the first event, \u201cThe Constitutional Perspective\u201d, featuring former Ambassador of Chile to the US, Arturo Fermandois, you can find the summary here: “We were able to reach agreements on the technicalities of the constitutional process.\u201d Read more about Arturo Fermandois\u2019 experience and knowledge surrounding Chile\u2019s referendum<\/a>.<\/span><\/p>\n\n\n\n

      The views expressed by speakers or other third parties in Luksic Scholars Foundation\u2019s webinars, events, and\/or conferences are those of the speaker or third-party and not, necessarily, of the Luksic Scholars Foundation\u2019s organization or its representatives.<\/span><\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

      [espa\u00f1ol\/English] El segundo evento de nuestra serie sobre el plebiscito chileno, \u201cla perspectiva cultural\u201d, junto a nuestro invitado especial y Luksic Scholar, Arturo Navarro, y Marcela Ramos como moderadora, suscit\u00f3 una enriquecedora conversaci\u00f3n, desde la definici\u00f3n de cultura, a c\u00f3mo se gest\u00f3 la cultura en Chile y c\u00f3mo se ve su futuro. 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What did we learn from Arturo Navarro? - Luksic Scholars<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/luksicscholars.org\/en\/admin-announcement\/el-debate-sobre-la-cultura-debe-ir-mas-alla-del-escenario-constitucional-que-aprendimos-de-la-charla-con-arturo-navarro-the-debate-on-culture-must-go-beyond-the-constitut\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"\u201cEl debate sobre la cultura debe ir m\u00e1s all\u00e1 del escenario constitucional\u201d. \u00bfQu\u00e9 aprendimos de la charla con Arturo Navarro? \/ "The debate on culture must go beyond the constitutional scenario." 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